Do we care about teachers?
Published April 29, 2016
By Tom Campbell
by Tom Campbell, Executive Producer and Moderator, NC SPIN, April 28, 2016.
The writer of Ecclesiastes says, “For everything there is a season and a time for every matter under heaven.” During hard times we recognize the need to hunker down and reduce spending. During good times we can spend more and invest.
State leaders saw the need to cut spending during The Great Recession; now our state budget has recovered and is healthy. Reliable estimates indicate that a combination of lower spending than was budgeted, coupled with tax revenues exceeding projections, has resulted in approximately $1 billion in available money during this short session. We would never advocate wholesale spending like proverbial drunken sailors but now is the time to invest in areas of greatest need.
One of those areas is teacher pay. Lawmakers pay lip service to increasing teacher pay but until last year little was done. In 2014 teachers and state employees received a $750 one-time bonus, an amount that Governor Pat McCrory admitted in an NC SPIN interview was “chickenfeed.” Last year’s increase of starting salaries for teachers entering the profession was a good step, but only a step.
WRAL television in Raleigh aired a documentary this week, “Grading Teacher Pay,” reporting that North Carolina raised teacher pay in the 1990s to 19th in the nation, almost the national average. By 2014 our state had dropped to 47th, some $12,000 per year below that average and lower than our neighboring states.
Teacher pay now ranks in the bottom quartile, at 42nd. North Carolina reduced education spending, cut teaching assistants, eliminated additional pay for those obtaining Masters degrees and eliminated a Teaching Fellows program that encouraged college students to go into the classroom. The workload for those remaining wasn’t cut, merely shouldered by fewer people. No wonder so many are leaving the profession and so few are enrolled in colleges of education. Erick Houck, UNC Professor of Education, said there was a real dollar cost in having to constantly interview, hire and acclimate new teachers.
Superintendent of Public Instruction June Atkinson said teachers don’t go into the profession to get rich, but neither do they take a vow of poverty. One teacher in the documentary said she would have to work 20-25 years under the current pay schedule before earning $50,000 a year. Another 17-year veteran who recently left teaching said it is obvious that North Carolina doesn’t care about teachers.
Is that true? Aside from the parent, the teacher is the single most important person in a child’s education, but do we really believe that is true? If so, now is a season for lawmakers to put our money where their rhetoric is. Perhaps a 10 percent raise, as Superintendent Atkinson proposed, might be too large a leap, but there is little reason why lawmakers cannot agree to Governor McCrory’s proposal for an average 5 percent increase, with the goal to make average pay $50,000 per year.
If our children (and their futures) are our most important investment, then excellent, long-term career teachers are essential to their success. Adequate pay makes teachers feel successful and want to stay on the job. Additionally, lawmakers should end the ridiculous practice of one-time bonuses and increase the pay of all state employees.
It is past time we take the subject of teacher pay off the table, because when we get distracted by issues like pay - important as they might be - we are not focusing on the most important goal of how to dramatically improve student outcomes.
April 29, 2016 at 9:20 am
Bruce Stanley says:
What is the average teacher pay when benefits provided by the taxpayers are factored in? I would like to see "teacher pay" calculated by the overall compensation package, not salary alone. Tack on about another 15k I believe. No one in the media ever mentions the benefits paid. That is pay.
April 29, 2016 at 11:31 am
Richard L Bunce says:
ALL teachers Tom? Or just government school teachers?
No more than any other government employee... and based on their performance the last few decades with the majority of students not proficient at basic skills... change is needed but I seriously doubt increased teacher pay is the answer.
Will increasing the pay of current government school teachers improve their performance? If you think that then I conclude that these teachers are not doing their best because of their perceived low pay. If you do not then you must be looking to replace them by attracting better teachers with higher pay. So why then across the board increases to good and bad teachers? Of course we have plenty of examples of school systems offering higher pay and getting even worse results and school systems offering lower pay and getting better results. Perhaps teacher pay has little to do with school system performance.
What we should be looking at is the bottom line... are students being educated to the satisfaction of their parents/guardians, future employers, post secondary education officials? If not, and that is certainly the case, then lets look to changes that will really make a difference.
April 29, 2016 at 12:08 pm
NC SPIN says:
Richard
You must not have read my column. I said we needed to take pay off the table so we could focus on outcomes. And the state is not responsible for pay for private sector teachers, so of course the topic is for state-sponsored teacher pay. I do not for one second that just spending money is the solution to our schools, but we are not doing right by our teachers, plain and simple. I challenge you to go spend one week in one classroom with a teacher, then come back to me and talk about it.
April 29, 2016 at 2:02 pm
Richard L Bunce says:
Taking pay off the table by increasing pay is not taking pay off the table. I don't need to spend a week in the classroom to see the results of the school systems and see the dissatisfaction of parents, employers, and post secondary education system officials who are the customers of this product/service. If the job is too difficult for the government school systems then fine... give the job to entities that do not think it is too difficult.
April 29, 2016 at 5:38 pm
Peter Jocys says:
We need to keep an eye on the Governor's proposed 1 time bonus of $5000 but no raise to teachers with 24 plus years of experience. It is very easy to see this is an election year ploy to buy my vote and then forget about me again later. I have given 27 years to educating young people and have been thrown under the bus. Experience, dedication, and loyalty are supposed to matter ....... at least that is what I try to teach my students.
And let's have more accountability on the students. Teachers are graded based on how well students do on tests? Does the public even realize that end of grade tests for middle school students do not count as any part of a students final grade? We rate teachers based on tests taken by students who have little to no incentive do their best. The public is clueless as to what teaches have to put up with and how much they do for young people.
Thanks for your article .....we need to keep education in the news to educate the public on the crisis we have and hopefully make changes for the better .... for kids, teachers, and society overall.
April 30, 2016 at 9:05 am
Ray Wood says:
April 29, 2016 at 6:22 pm
Tad Richard says:
Richard,
I understand and empathize with your frustration, but for the life of me I cannot figure out how you could measure the bottom line for the teaching profession. I think everyone would like to see professionals like teachers get paid based upon results; but how do you measure those results?
Some lawyers get paid based upon a portion of the awards they win. But lawyers can choose their clients; teachers don't get to choose their students. Doctors get paid based upon their education and experience. Nobody expects an oncologist to get paid based upon the improvement in health of her patients. All of her patients die, despite her best efforts.
Or maybe we should not consider teachers professionals? Maybe they are like manual laborers and we should simply replace them with new ones willing to work for less? Unfortunately, that strategy saves money, but will quickly result in an uneducated population and a much lower tax base for all of us.
No Child Left Untested, aka No Child Left Behind, is a huge failure in that it does not accurately measure teacher performance (see my note above re:measuring doctor's competence based upon medical outcomes) while it simultaneously forces teachers to teach memorization-based 'learning' over critical thinking and analysis.
I'm all for paying teachers based upon 'the bottom line', but nobody has shown me ANY ability to adequately measure the bottom line. Unless and until that happens, we need to recognize that we are in a national competition to attract the best and brightest teachers. The way to do that is to offer competitive salaries, and choose the best candidates from a larger and deeper pool of applicants. It's hard to get rid of the bad teachers if there are no good teachers waiting to take their places.
April 30, 2016 at 10:09 am
Richard L Bunce says:
Parents, employers, and post secondary education officials know how to measure the results of K-12 education. We know that parents have the most interest here and if they have the resources can make the best choices for their children's education. You do not hear any of these issues in alternative school systems. Provide the opportunity for all parents, not just the relatively wealthy ones... including a sizable number of those with roles in the government school systems, to have a real education choice for their children. Employers and post secondary education officials can then support the school systems that are meeting their needs as well... employers already doing that in the post secondary education system.
Of the many problems with NCLB the biggest was that it left the assessment of the schools, not the student, up to the people being assessed including school administrators, teachers, government education bureaucrats. They have proven to be as incompetent with this new task as they have with their primary task. At best they came up with "teaching to the test" and at worst outright cheating on the test.
An independent assessment regime, totally separate from the schools being assessed, with a hierarchy of panels providing oversight including parents, employers, and post secondary education officials... but NOT from education departments. Assessments would be of randomly selected students toward the end of their longest break during the school year and focus on interviews and written responses instead of late 20th century mass testing methods like the multiple choice test.
Government school systems like all other school systems would have the power to reward teachers who are performing and fire teachers who are not performing.
May 1, 2016 at 10:19 pm
Sarah Smith says:
Richard, I can tell by your anger and your grammar that your teachers must have unfortunately let you down. As a former teacher, I went ahead and at least threw in a few commas for you (please see the revised version of your post below). Hopefully this will get the ball rolling on improving your basic skills.
In all seriousness, please go spend a week at a high-need school to see how amazing so many of the teachers are. I spent a few years teaching in NC public schools, and most of my colleagues were wonderful teachers. Are there bad teachers? Absolutely. Now that I work in the business world I can confirm that there are also ineffective employees in the private sector (though I suspect you already know that). Even with a significantly increased private sector salary, I'll never have to work as hard as I did or be as drained as I was as a teacher. My hat is off to everyone who stays in the classroom and makes sacrifices for the sake of our kids while North Carolina continues to cap their worth at $50k.
I understand that pay does not automatically solve problems, but it does increase our state's chances of retaining and attracting highly effective teachers. Just like in a company, you have to pay market value, offer cost of living increases, reward success, and value your employees to create a healthy and effective organization. Until North Carolina realizes this, the human capital crisis will continue.
"ALL teachers, Tom? Or just government school teachers?
Given that the majority of students are not proficient at basic skills, teachers must not be effective. Change is needed, but I seriously doubt increased teacher pay is the answer.
Will increasing the pay of current government school teachers improve their performance? If you think so, then I conclude that these teachers are not doing their best because of their perceived low pay. If you do not, then you must be looking to replace them by attracting better teachers with higher pay. So then why should the state offer across the board increases to good and bad teachers? We have plenty of examples of school systems offering higher pay and getting even worse results, and school systems offering lower pay and getting better results. Perhaps teacher pay has little to do with school system performance.
What we should be looking at is the bottom line. Are students being educated to the satisfaction of their parents/guardians, future employers, and post-secondary education officials? They are not, so let's look to changes that will really make a difference."
May 2, 2016 at 11:40 am
Richard L Bunce says:
Pedantic issues aside... let's let parents decide which school system is best for their children... and then the market decide which school systems should be supported.
May 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm
Sarah Smith says:
I genuinely wish it was that easy, Richard. Unfortunately, not all parents have the means, network, and influence to push for their kids to have the best. Through no fault of their own, not all parents can afford private school (most can't!), and many don't have the network to help them identify which charter schools are actually effective (last I heard <40% are actually performing better than public schools, so it's important to use discretion when choosing). These parents' children are left to deal with the mess NC has created while wealthier kids leave for greener pastures. They deserve better, but unfortunately when the "market sorts it out," the less privileged often get left behind. The reality is, the wealthy control "the market."
The goal of the public system is to provide a strong foundation for everyone so that each and every person has a chance at making it in today's world. ALL kids matter, and the students in our public system deserve way better. I think charter and private schools do a great job of testing the waters on what is possible in education and innovating new solutions that public schools can learn from. Often times they also provide unique opportunities for students who need them, and I think that is wonderful. I just don't think we are in a place to scrap hopes for the public system and turn to "the market." Let's nurture the system we have and build it up so that students from every background can be successful.
Teacher pay is part of that because educators are the most critical influence in the classroom.
May 3, 2016 at 5:33 pm
Richard L Bunce says:
Education vouchers and the education market will solve the resource issue for relatively poor parents as it does for relatively wealthy parents. Most parents are far better able to decide what is best for their children than government education bureaucrats. After decades of the near monopoly of the government education system we have a majority of students not proficient at basic skills. Trapping the children from relatively poor parents in that system is what must change. Government school system teacher compensation is not the problem and increasing it is not the solution. Parents getting their children into the school system that meets the parents and their child's education needs is the solution as it has been and is for relatively wealthy parents. To imply that the government education system is the only answer and that relatively wealthy parents are the only parents capable of securing their children a good education is the attitude that has lead us to the dismal situation we are in today.
May 3, 2016 at 6:57 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
Competition makes us better! Watch the documentary Waiting For Superman. Not saying to scrap the public school system, but give parents more choice.
May 2, 2016 at 2:47 pm
Sarah Smith says:
I also do not mean to imply that you do not care about all kids. I just mean to emphasize that I don't think the market will equally protect the interest of everyone.
May 3, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Richard L Bunce says:
I know the government education system will not and has not... see school assessments by various categories of students.
http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/reading_math_g12_2015/files/infographic_2015_g12_math_reading.pdf
April 29, 2016 at 2:47 pm
Paul Lawler says:
Tom,
you could try my approach. guaranteed to unite the national tea party leadership with the national teacher groups leadership.
Use a robust merit pay system to incentivize teachers and generously reward the most effective teachers. Teacher groups don't like merit pay and tea folks don't like spending. A political miracle!
Focusing on effective teachers shifts the discussion to learning, emphasizes that we need to teach kids much more than in our day and would be an outstanding economic development tool as we alert all the highly educated folks who are so important to business now that NC is all about excellence in schools.
Paul
April 29, 2016 at 5:15 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
The other component of the teacher compensation, which, like the benefit package (including top of the line health insurance), rarely gets mentioned by the media, and I don't see any trace of it in this column, is the teacher pensions. NC public school teachers receive a pension paid by the NC taxpayers FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES, with as little as 5 years of service for a teacher over 60. At age 50, a teacher can receive the pension with only 20 years of service. That is a HUGE benefit paid by the taxpayers. But all we hear about is the paltry teacher pay in NC. I worked in the private sector for 37 years and wish I received a pension from the NC taxpayers. If I had been a teacher I could have worked only 20 years and be getting a check from the NC taxpayers every month for the rest of my life. Why doesn't the media include benefits and pensions when commentating on teacher pay?
April 30, 2016 at 9:34 am
Ray Wood says:
It is hard to measure teacher effectiveness because we are trying to apply business principles to things that cannot be measured that way. Letting a student vent and cry privately after breaking down in class because of problems at home and then offering kind, positive words to help them get through the day cannot be measured on a school rating report card. This is one example of the many things teachers do that the public forgets and cannot be "measured."
It is hard to measure how many students you affect and help grow into people who will be successful in life and society.
ONE of the many ways to start measuring teacher effectiveness should be to emphasize how much a student grows under your care. The current system counts 80 percent of a state test grade as to what a student makes and 20 percent based on growth. There are schools with privileged kids with experiences and knowledge poor kids do not have and do amazing on tests. How can you compare these schools to the ones with so many other variables to overcome (a decent breakfast, parents that may or may not value education, etc.) Apples to oranges. What a farce. Some of the "best" schools in this state have great test scores but if you look deeper they have many other issues (e.g. Chapel Hill Carrboro Schools.)
Letting politicians in Raleigh (some with no college education) decide how schools should be measured speaks for itself.
As far as the benefits teachers get ..... you get destroyed if you do early retirement at 20 years and the check is peanuts.....you will be working another job forever. And let's compare benefits and salary to other states and what they offer teachers (we are behind.) How about paying me for overtime? Working year round? Vacation ...? I don't get paid for that time. Let me do full retirement early? Extreme ideas? Not if you want to compare teachers to other jobs.
April 30, 2016 at 5:26 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
Don't forget that the salary you receive is for 9 months work, not 12 months. Divide your salary by .75 to annualize it. You can get a job and work those additional 3 months if you choose to. You chose to be a teacher which provides you 3 months of unpaid leave annually. Rarely do I see that mentioned in discussions about teacher pay, and as I said previously rarely do I hear about the health insurance and the pension provided by the taxpayers. Those things seem to be taken for granted. Those are very, very nice benefits which many people not working for the state do not ever see. You receive those benefits. Also, your chosen vocation allows you to live in a secure world. Things can be pretty rough out there in a market driven economy, as we saw during the great recession. There were a lot of good people in the private sector who were without a job for quite some time while you had a secure job.
May 1, 2016 at 8:48 am
Ray Wood says:
Sir...... it is 10 months....... not 9.
Teachers contribute part of their salary to their pensions. And many teachers must take jobs after retirement because their pensions are only a percentage of what their salary was.
There is a 401k plan but no match by the state.
If we really want to treat teachers as professionals and value their work we will hire them for 12 months and use the other two for professional development and growth .... which unfortunately is not valued as evidenced by no extra pay for a masters degree, etc.
I chose to be a teacher but not to take a vow of poverty. Do you realize some teachers actually qualify for free and reduced lunch programs offered to students?
Secure world? Massive budgets cuts. Rising costs and little to no keeping up with our salaries. It is not secure when you are forced out of the profession because you cannot pay for food, clothing, and shelter for you and your family. Blame for all of societies problems with little to no support from parents who want all kids to receive trophies for showing up and then blame teachers when young adults crumble on their own and have to move back home. Or the other extreme ......... kids with parent(s) who do not support education at all or come from horrific environments and situations where the priority is survival and maybe some learning if lucky. Great working conditions.
I also suggest you go work in a school as a substitute teacher and experience the bureaucratic dysfunction and illogical processes forced on educators. It is amazing how many former private sector folks try to teach and run within the first year.
Education is step one in a successful, thriving, secure society and nation. The world is catching up quickly as many other countries have made education a priority. See the international critical thinking tests (PISA) and check out where the US ranks.
I think we all can agree there some serious problems.
May 2, 2016 at 11:32 am
Bruce Stanley says:
Points well taken. I feel your pain. Hopefully the new budget is going to provide a salary increase to the 50k level.
I credit the GOP economic policies in NC for the surpluses allowing teacher pay to be brought up. I hope you do too.
May 1, 2016 at 2:33 pm
Edward Gleason says:
Obviously Bruce you've never none a teacher or forgot what teachers do when you graduated from the 5th grade. Teachers work on average 4 to 6 hours at home each day. Having retired from teaching I can assure you your formula is flawed. Your final comparison appears to show a hint of jealous. You have to get a Masters degree to be a teacher and there are very few individuals with Masters Degrees that are unemployed in the private sector.
May 2, 2016 at 1:53 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
Dang right I'm jealous. I worked 37 years in the private sector, which funds the public sector and it's pensions. I don't get a pension for the rest of my life even though I'm one of the financiers of your pension. Dang right I'm jealous!
May 3, 2016 at 7:46 am
Tommy Old says:
You say teac hers get paid for 9 months, which shows your lack of knowledge because it is actually 10 months. But what you do not include are the countless hours teachers spend of their own time to prepare lessons, grade papers, go on field trips on Saturdays so as to not miss class time. Yes, we chose to teach and usually it is not for the pay for sure but rather to make a difference in a young person's life. I chose it as a second career after 25 years in law enforcement. I have never been sorry for either choice. As for the 3 months unpaid leave, you are correct, unpaid leave being the key words. Most teachers do work in the summer. I live near the coast and many teachers clean beach cottages. Have you ever done that? I bet not. As for the pension, the state takes a percentage of everyone of my checks towards my retirement. You obviously did not know that either. Yes I could retire early-but there is a penalty, so your 5 year statement if full of......well you fill it in.
May 3, 2016 at 5:30 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
Is there anything that you are thankful to the taxpayers for, the taxpayers who provide the your annual salary for 10 months work, for your top notch health insurance (which many in the private sector do not receive) and for your pension for the rest of your life? Yes, those taxpayers! The ones who pay for your pension for the rest of your life, and your health insurance, but do not receive any such benefit from the state of NC themselves? The ones working their butts off and paying a ton of NC income tax so that you can have a job in the public sector and receive those nice benefits from the state which they don't receive?
May 4, 2016 at 7:44 am
Tad Richard says:
Bruce, In addition to asking the teachers if they are thankful for all the state has graciously provided for them, perhaps you should consider and answer, "Are we thankful for all that teachers are thanklessly providing for us." That is, after all, the point of the original article.
Are we thankful for teachers reducing the need for police, by creating educated workers that have the skills to get and keep a job? Are we thankful for teachers creating additional wealth in the form of higher salaries from management and executive jobs that will (hopefully) pay for our medicare and medicaid and (eventually) pay down our national debt? Are we thankful that teachers babysit our miserable kids so parents can work -- at less of a cost than any private childcare facility? I feel like I should be repeating that line from the commercials, "Now how much would you pay? But wait, there's more!"
My point is, that if you do any kind of cost-benefit analysis, teachers are a bargain at twice the price. (Which everyone seems to think they get, anyway.) We should be thanking them, not the other way around.
May 4, 2016 at 10:25 am
Richard L Bunce says:
ALL teachers may provide those services whether they are employed by the government or the private sector. That has nothing to do with compensation levels. For many parents, employers, and post secondary education officials the service the government school systems are not adequately providing is a young adult that is sufficiently educated for what these customers want and need.
May 4, 2016 at 12:25 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
Where did I say that I am not thankful for what teachers do? I am thankful for what teachers do. I wouldn't want to do it, that's for sure. But teaching is a choice, and I'm tiring of their complaining. My point is that the media never mentions the job security, health insurance and pensions when discussing teacher pay. When the NCGA brings the salaries up to over 50k in the short session, due in large part to the surpluses generated by economic policies they put in place in 2013-15 which were largely opposed by teacher unions, I wonder if I will see any teachers writing letters to the editor thanking the taxpayers for their salary increases? Or will it always be more of the same "it's still not enough, woe is me attitude"?
May 4, 2016 at 8:04 am
Tommy Old says:
I have two responses for you. One, while I do realize that many people have no health insurance at all or if they do, it is poor insurance. However, while I don't pay a lot for my health insurance from the state, it is not the over whelming health insurance coverage that you imply that it is. I spent over $5000 last year out of pocket. Second, this pension that you keep harping on; I can tell you because I have checked, IF I retire at age 62, I will get about $400 per month. If I wait until 65, I'll get about $600. I entered education at age 50 and I am now 57, so I will not get this fabulous pension you keep referring to and as I said, teachers contribute from their paychecks to their own retirement and it isn't a little bit of money either and it is mandatory. last, if you wanted a public supported retirement and benefits, you should have entered public service where you could have enjoyed serving the people of North Carolina where I have lived all of my life except 8 years while in the military or in Virginia where I worked for 25 years in law enforcement. It feels great every day to contribute.
May 4, 2016 at 12:37 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
I can turn it around and say the same thing to you. If you are unhappy with your pay, consider your pension insignificant, and don't really consider your health insurance to be that great of a benefit, maybe you shouldn't have gone into public service.
May 4, 2016 at 4:41 pm
Tommy Old says:
And I in turn can say to you that if you think teachers are getting paid too much, then you go to school and get the degree to teach. Then you can reap the great pay you seem to imply that teachers get. I did not become a teacher for the pay the same as I did not become a police officer for the pay because neither profession is known for their pay. I have done both jobs for the satisfaction of serving the public but that does not mean that any of use don't want fair pay. Being ranked 47th out of 5o states in teacher pay is not really setting the world on fire. However some people in the public sector sure do always want to point out pay as thought they are the only ones paying taxes. I pay taxes too as do my family, friends etc.
May 5, 2016 at 10:17 am
Bruce Stanley says:
I do not think teachers are paid too much. You are putting words in my mouth. I am for the NCGA bringing teacher salaries up to the 50k level. I am against teachers and the media not acknowledging the benefits and pensions when they assess and complain about teacher pay, and never acknowledge those working hard in the private sector who finance their pay.
May 6, 2016 at 10:44 am
Tommy Old says:
Last time I checked, teachers pay taxes too. So that would mean they support their own pay not just "private citizens" as you seem to think. There are over 81,000 public school teachers in N.C. That is a pretty substantial contribution to the tax base.Acknowledging their pay and benefits involves what according to you? ALL state employees get they same benefits. the difference is that not all state employees have a Bachelor or Masters degree. But teacher do have one of those and should be paid accordingly. That's the problem. They are not.
May 6, 2016 at 4:32 pm
Bruce Stanley says:
It takes 6 private sector workers to fund every public sector employee. Paying public sector employees subtracts money from the coffers, which then needs to be replenished from the private sector. Ask yourself this. If there were no private sector employees paying taxes, where would the money come from to pay public sector employees? Get it? You get the last word. I'm done corresponding with you.
May 5, 2016 at 11:24 am
Richard L Bunce says:
One State will always be ranked 50 even if all 50 States were to pay teachers ~$100K in salary...
May 6, 2016 at 10:37 am
Tommy Old says:
But that is not the case. N.C. teachers ar not paid $100,000 and are not even paid $50,000
May 6, 2016 at 11:08 am
Richard L Bunce says:
Didn't say it was the case now... making the point that IF it was the case some State would still be ranked 50th... the fallacy of the State ranking argument... some State will always be ranked 50th even if it is overcompensating it's teachers.
May 6, 2016 at 4:16 pm
Richard L Bunce says:
Employees are paid for the value they add to their employer's business and the availability of people to provide that value. Having a college degree does not guarantee anything in the job market and certainly not compensation. Based on government school system assessments in recent decades the value is not there. Based on the demand of parents for alternative education choices the value is not there. Based on the assessments of employers and post secondary education officials the value is not there.
May 7, 2016 at 2:55 pm
Tommy Old says:
You are one of those people that I say the sky is blue, you find a reason to say it is not. Keep on believing and ranting about what you think (key word is think because you have no clue really because YOU ARE NOT IN EDUCATION). I'm done
May 9, 2016 at 11:06 am
Richard L Bunce says:
NIce try at deflection. My views on this topic in this article and many others on this site over the years have been very consistent and born out by many links presenting facts on the performance of government school systems and the views of parents, employers, and post secondary education officials.
... and that is exactly the problem with the government education industrial complex... they believe themselves to be above reproach. It's customers have a very different opinion. I do not need to ride a sanitation truck to see that when they make their pickup and then the street is freshly littered with trash that they are not doing the task they were hired to do.
April 30, 2016 at 6:34 pm
Richard L Bunce says:
How about we let the child's parents decide?
If it's too tough a task for government schools how about letting alternate schools perform the task?
(Some with no college education)... we have plenty of bad experience with the folks with Education degrees.
Comparing to other States is nonsense. Every State compensates it's teachers ~$100K... one State will still be 50th.
April 29, 2016 at 10:55 pm
Alfred Lee says:
I do believe teachers deserve a raise -- but over more years than just one.
I also believe that regular state employees may need a raise even more. Year after year, regular state employees have gotten either nothing or mere bonuses. Aside from a 1.2% one year, it's been like this since 2009.
And I'm not even talking about real raises. Any employee worth keeping is worth a cost-of-living raise.
May 2, 2016 at 1:58 pm
Richard L Bunce says:
Government school apologists want the discussion to be about teacher pay... not about this... http://www.ncspin.com/nations-report-card-still-waiting-for-improvement/
May 4, 2016 at 1:21 pm
Tom Campbell says:
Richard, where did you learn to read and write? Was it in a private school? If not, some taxpayers somewhere paid for your education. Prior to the counties and state taking over education only the rich could afford to educate their children. Is this what you would advocate today?
May 4, 2016 at 2:15 pm
Richard L Bunce says:
I accept societies interest for significant government K-12 funding. That does not mean it has to be spent only in government owned and operated schools systems. Those limits do not exist in pre-K education government funding and those limits do not exist in post secondary education government funding. These limits exist in very few government funding programs.
Read the K-12 government school systems assessments. This is not a new issue as it existed in the 60s and 70s from my first hand knowledge and continues to today based on the few reputable assessments and the concerns of their customers (parents, employers, post secondary education officials). There are always many more parents applying for Education Vouchers than are available.
Look at the mess the government school systems have made of their secondary task to assess themselves. At best teaching to the test and at worst outright cheating. They never should have been tasked by elected officials to asses themselves. An independent assessment process using far more than multiple choice tests and away from the school system involving students at the end of their longest breaks.
Parents, employers, and post secondary education officials know the government school systems with their focus on social engineering are not serving their needs as customers. Provide the resources for all parents to have a real choice in education for their children as the realtively wealthy continue to have for their children. Government school system officials/employees need to focus on significantly improving their services and in a free education market those that perform well will be rewarded and those that do not will be replaced by those that will.
